NextGen HVAC Innovation Challenge Webinar


hi good morning everyone welcome to the next-gen HVAC innovation challenges webinar for PON 3519 my name is Mike Genovese I’m a project manager at NYSERDA with the advanced buildings team with me in the room in Albany are Bob Carver and Joe Borowiec, also with the advance buildings team and on the line in New York City are Chris Mahes and Saul Brown from the multi-family residential team specifically working on the retrofit in New York program so the webinar today is meant to be purely informational everything that we’re presenting is available through the PON three five nineteen funding page and through the attachment so if you open up any of the documents all of this information is there we’re just summarizing it for the audience today so the agenda for today’s presentation we’re going to do some background introduction into the program and our goals we’re going to talk a little bit about the types of projects that we want to come in through the program and how we stage and construct the project we’ll talk about the concept papers which is the first step in the submission process for this PON and then we’ll go through the four innovation challenge areas for Round four if you have any questions during the presentation you can either use the Q&A function in the webinar or you can send us an email at Advance buildings at NYSERDA NY gov we’re going to get to all the questions at the end if there’s anything that we can’t answer during the webinar or we need to seek additional information we’ll try to respond through the email so if you have a question that requires a little bit more in depth answer you can set it to us in an email and we can get back to those after the webinars complete so a little bit of background on the program so in June of this year New York passed the climate leadership and community protection act or the CLCPA that outlined these goals so 85% greenhouse gas emissions reductions by 2050 100% clean electricity generation by 2040 and 185 trillion BTUs of on-site energy efficiency by 2025 so in addition to that in May New York City introduced local law 97 as part of the climate mobilization act or the CMA so that actually sets declining carbon emissions intensity caps for buildings over 25,000 square feet in New York City and those will change for 2024 and 2030 beyond 2030 the CMA establishes an advisory council and they would establish lower emissions caps every five years so those caps should reduce the greenhouse gas emissions from New York City buildings by 40 percent by 2030 and 80 percent by 2050 so why are we looking at buildings essentially the buildings are a large user of energy in the state they’re a major contributor to the system peak demand and greenhouse gas emissions but they’re also one of our important critical infrastructures that we have in the state so specifically why HVAC in the last 15-20 years lighting loads have gone down substantially HVAC’s risen to about 40% of the total building usage and it represents a quarter of the total energy usage in the state which is about a third of the total greenhouse gas emissions mostly driven by fossil fuel-fired heating so in the past in this area at NYSERDA we’re much more opportunistic in the way that we provided funding but going forward we’ve taken a lot more focus on high impact areas and defining what we see as critical problems in HVAC HVAC and embracing a much strong tech to market focus so focusing on commercialized products and services so with all that in mind we developed the next-gen HVAC program and that was launched in 2017 it has these goals in mind essentially we want buildings to be more energy efficient more resilient and better for people to live in but just as importantly we want to make sure that HVAC solutions that we’re putting on the market address both New York’s building stock which is somewhat unique and the diverse climate across the state so our hope our hope for this program is funding for near-term product development and demo projects demonstration projects and longer-term research and development projects so the program was kicked off in 2017 and we made fifteen million dollars available over three years and four rounds so rounds on average for rounds one to three we allocated about three to four billion dollars per round so rounds one one three have already been completed we got a significant number of proposals in those rounds we’ve project on going from those rounds but this quarter we’re accepting submissions for round four which was launched on October 17 and it’s currently open for concept paper submissions so we use for this PON we use a two-stage submission process so the initial application is just a four-page concept paper and then there if you get approved for that there’s an additional full proposal that’s submitted later on so I’m going to give an overview of the project staging and then Bob’s going to explain some of the details with the concept paper submission process so for this PON we use a technology readiness level or TRL to categories the project categorize the project into these three stages the feasibility development and demonstration and on our PON website there’s a one of these attachments as a TRL CRL calculator where the CRL stands for commercial commercial commercial commercial readiness level there we go and so we have that available for proposers to use the calculator essentially the proposer opens the calculator answers a short list of questions about their technology and about their company and the macro spits out a TRL TRL number so that every proposer knows what stage to submit into so for a feasibility project this TRL was one two three we consider that something like Applied Research that’s aged early-stage development project written up we can say that like a product development commercialization of a new product or new service and that’s TRL 4-7 a demonstration project is a field demonstration in New York State and that is so these are the first installation of that technology in the state or it could be an underutilized technology in the state and the intended demonstration is to do significant measurement and verification to collect data to verify the product energy savings or greenhouse gas reduction so each of these three stages has a specified cost share that you can see on the right side of that table and that must be matched by the proposer so the cost share is is things that the proposer essentially gives to the project so it could be tasks it could be materials it could be in-kind labor so hours donated to the project and those can come from the main proposer or it can come from any of the subcontractors on the project but each stage has a has a different minimum cost share percentage and that percentage is of the total project cost so in this program depending on where a project starts we’re looking for proposals that will be able to take technology from its current state wherever it falls on this little timeline all the way to commercialization which is our end goal so if an awardee comes into this program they’ll be able to progress from each stage from feasibility to product development to demonstration without having to reapply for funds for each stage but they must submit at the beginning so during the application process you must submit a budget and a statement of work for all stages required for you to get commercialization so if you start in the feasibility stage you have to submit a statement of work and budget for feasibility product development and demonstration to be certain development the development stage of that statement work and budget for development and demonstration and demonstration is just that’s the only stage you need to submit for so the first step in the application process like I mentioned before is to put together and submit a four-page concept paper and Bob Carver is going to talk a little bit about that hello good morning everyone this is Bob Carver and thank you for joining us here today so the concept paper format is what I’m going to talk about and it’s probably a few of the most important things to talk about are the due date it’s December 12 2019 at 3 p.m. the way this program works is that you must submit a concept paper there’s no process to get to the next stage without submitting a concept paper so if you don’t submit a concept paper you’ve given up any chance for participating in the full proposal round we have a template it’s attachment b hit support page template there’s seven questions that we ask proposers to talk through in the concept paper tell us about their technology tell us about what stage it’s at tell us about the competitive landscape that their technology will compete in a little bit about what the work plan is when it comes time to submit we have a on December 12th you’ll be submitting to a online portal a couple of things to point out you have to there’s a registration process to be able to submit and 3 p.m. deadline is a hard deadline there was you know 3 p.m. and one second is late and your proposal will not be accepted this is rigorously enforced by our contract administration team so because of that we strongly recommend that you start uploading your concept paper before noon try to start working on in the morning if you’ve never done anything like this should probably start making sure you can upload the document and its content the day before if you have problems during the submission process you can we can try to work with you the more time we have the better the chances are for us to have a successful outcome and then I’m going to talk a little bit about the evaluation and criteria so we have like six criteria and we show the scores associated with each criteria and the other point that’s on the slide that’s important is the way this works is in order to get to the full proposal round you need to achieve a score of 65 you’re really not competing against other proposals or concept papers per se you are just trying to achieve a score of 65 for your concept paper if you don’t achieve the score of 65 you’re not invited to the full proposal round the if you look at the scoring criteria you can see that it’s kind of a flat distribution but the things that are most important are New York State impacts you know is this going to have a significant impact on greenhouse gas emissions energy savings innovation you know there has to be something novel about this we’re not doing things that are already commercially available and the other one that’s important is competitive landscape and market barriers and here what we’re looking for is for people to describe that they have a good understanding of their competitive space and what barriers that they’re likely to accept we’re looking for people to demonstrate they’ve reached out to possible end-users they’ve reached out to stakeholders they have an understanding of what they’re looking for they understanding of what value proposition they need to have you know we’re of course the team is important and you know telling us a bit about what you’re going to do is also important and I think that’s all I need to say about that and maybe I’m going to move to the Innovation Challenge areas next okay so let’s see for the Innovation Challenge area some of these challenges have guidelines and markets that we’d like to see the proposals target for how well a project meets these guidelines will be taken into account during the evaluation however some of the challenges have eligibility requirements which must be met or the proposal may be considered non-responsive so the first category is a heat pump category if you’ve been paying close attention to the policy and political activities with regards to climate and energy in the environment you’ve probably become aware that there’s increased interest in electrification of buildings to try to move away from fossil fuels and because of this you know the interest in heat pumps has become strong because heat pumps are viewed as a critical technology for moving away from fossil fuels for New York State’s heating loads ah pumps have undergone a lot of improvements over the last ten years you know a couple of you know things have on the slide you know we didn’t previously the you know they weren’t thought to be efficient previously they weren’t thought to work below 40 degrees but with the advent of inverter driven compressors and variable speed technologies you know those are no longer barriers however there still are some barriers that exist for heat pumps and it’s hard to beat the simple thermal dynamic says of you know when it gets colder it gets harder for a heat pump to do what it needs to do and we think there’s still an opportunity for improvement because there are many heat pumps that only provide 60% of their rated capacity at 17 degrees Fahrenheit they give up 40% of their capacity as the temperature drops to 17 you’ll see systems that are ready to work at -5 and below but they are providing in most cases in most cases they’re providing less capacity than they would be at a more moderate temperature we see that the efficiency varies a lot with the rated capacities we see that smaller size units tend to have higher efficiencies than lower systems and the other thing that is important to us is even though we are a heating climate we also have a significant air conditioning load so not only does a heat pump need to be efficient and work well in the winter it needs to work well in the summer so what we’re looking at next slide is there’s like four sub challenges we’re looking at electric heat pumps that just do heat and cooling we’re looking for integrated air source heat pump that has the ability not only heat and cool but also provide domestic hot water we’re very interested in looking at packaged terminal heat pumps as a possible solution for replacing packaged terminal air conditioners in multifamily buildings mini-split heat pumps is another thing that we’re interested in and that we think there’s some potential for coming up with a mini-split heat pump design that could actually fit inside a PTAC sleeve or be able to utilize a PTAC sleeve in a novel way so that is a quick summary of the first challenge the next challenge I’m going to talk about is the thermal distribution category and to us thermal distribution includes a number of things it includes forced air it includes hydronic it includes one or two pipe steam systems it can also include many split systems or other refrigerant based split systems and these are all systems that have been around for a while they all have their strengths they all have the weaknesses they all have room for improvements and you know what we’re looking at is you know how can we make improvements to these are there ways that we can make air ducts less leaky are there way that we can make steam systems work more as you know efficiently by more providing more even heat across the system there’s some concerns about mini splits in the amount of refrigerants they use in larger systems and like what I would call a VRF variable refrigerant flow system there could be you know there could also be some improvements that with respect to the controls and monitoring and maintenance of the systems so if we look at the next slide some of this challenge requirements that we’re looking for are we’re looking for things that would be applicable the single-family multifamily commercial small commercial but the most important thing is that we have to see a pathway for reduction in energy usage and reduction in greenhouse gas emissions over what’s currently done in the marketplace and I think this is where we’re going to transfer to our team in New York City thanks Bob hello folks good morning I’m Chris mahes with the retrofit New York program here at NYSERDA can I give you a quick few minutes overview of what we’re looking for with this particular challenge of hauling the energy pod so for those of you who are not familiar with the retrofit new york program so basically the elevator pitch so retrofit New York is really looking to bring our existing buildings talked to and net zero levels of performance or near Net Zero levels and really based upon the energy strong initiative that was initiated in the Netherlands about ten years ago initially we’re looking at really engaging with the residential building stock so for example the affordable housing building stock and also for example the dormitories and the the SUNY systems has initial portfolios really looking to use an industrialized approach to really accomplish a deep energy and that’s zero retrofit on these various building pipelines and really using an industrialized approach which is utilizing components that are deeply integrated and manufactured off-site transported onto site and really installed on buildings in a very compressed construction timeframe so the energy Pod challenge is not something that’s academic to us it’s this isn’t an academic exercise it’s it’s a key piece of technology that we actually need to scale this initiative so the proposals that we’re looking for and we’re looking for aggressive time frames in terms of getting to market and something that’s very buildable that teams feel that they can absolutely deliver on initially well the energy pod itself is really targeted to low-rise low-rise construction so we’re looking at one two three stories in terms of multifamily application in terms of functionality we’re looking for a modular unit that can really supply all the mechanical needs on a distributed basis so the heating cooling ventilation dehumidification and hot-water load of each apartment should be supplied by the energy pod next slide please okay so in terms of the technical requirements there are a number of technical documents that are intended or included as exhibits in the pon one of which is an engineering report really outlining the technical specifications that are required for the energy pod now we want to accomplish all this with tenants in place and also we’re looking for an initial price point of around fifteen thousand per unit delivered and installed this isn’t going to be an absolute disqualifier for proposals but we are looking for proposals to come in initially at around that price point and really looking for proposers to really articulate also their thoughts and really achieving a pretty deep level of cost compression to the next few years so the next 1 to 5 years these price points are an arbitrary they’re based on analysis we’ve done on affordable housing projects so to really hit a scale price point in which subsidy is no longer required we really need to try and deliver at these specific price points next slide so in terms of pathways and entry points to this challenge we’re looking at three basic points of entry so the first is really aggregating existing products into one unified housing doing some work to really pull that together as an integrated unit and delivering that in 8 to 18 months in terms of a time frame the other path so I mentioned that this is based on Dutch initiative energy sprong so there actually are a handful of European manufacturers that do have energy pod systems in Europe and option two is really the initiating a partnership with European manufacturers to bring those European products to the new york state market there’s a fair amount of what that’s going to be needed to really adapt to solutions in many cases for example those solutions don’t include air conditioning so air conditioning is and absolutely as Bob alluded to is a need we have here in New York State so really looking to adopt the European technologies to the relieve the situation on the ground here in New York State that’s entry point number two and the last point of entry is really the ground up om approach and really building this thing from scratch and having a deep level of integration and that’s to be delivered and the most generous timeframe we have here which is about 24 to 36 months so with that I’m going to hand it over to Mike and we’ll be around to take questions at the end ok so the last technology area for the challenge area for the this round is the technology transfer and the idea here in the tech transfer category is to identify HVAC products that are commercially available either outside of the US or outside of New York State and that would be able to help us meet the CL CPA May goals that we talked about earlier in the presentation so to take those HVAC products and define a path to market for them in New York State so this area we’re going to have a strong preference for companies or organizations that are able to partner with New York State companies so to be able either local manufacturing or local distribution within the state with existing companies in New York and so an example of an area had a well-developed market that was it we were able to move technology into the states in the last five to ten years or so is that of high efficiency low emissions biomass start heating in New York so in the last five years or so through the renewable heat New York program NYSERDA has been able to provide incentives for the installation of biomass fire heating systems and we maintain a qualified list of technologies for the state for that program so that technology a lot of it began in Europe and was adopted to New York and there’s a lot of local partners and local manufacturers that were able to partner with the companies in Europe to bring the technologies here so that’s a good example of a successful tech transfer opportunity but some of the reasons why some technologies might not yet be available in the state we’ve identified it could be local equipment electrical standards that the the equipment needs to be brought up to it could be appliance certifications for the u.s. it could be adherence to local building codes but there there is also other barriers like just overall familiarity with the New York state market and just a lack of local partners which is something that we’re help hoping to address through that so we we believe some of these issues could be addressed through product development projects that so they could take the existing design modify it to make it eligible for sale or to meet the certifications for the US and then some of the other issues might be addressed through field demonstrations so consuming familiarity with the market might be addressed through a demonstration project in which the out-of-state company has a local partner to do an installation of their product within New York State and monitor to collect data on its performance for New York State Building and in a New York State climate so under the categories of eligible proposals are similar to the similar distribution category so single-family residential multi-family residential or commercial and small commercial applications and the technology has to illustrate a clear reduction in energy usage or greenhouse gas emissions over what is currently commercially available in the state some things that are ineligible in this category include technologies with a TRL less than four so we’re really not looking for research projects in this category we’re looking to fund either later stage of development or demonstration projects so anything that would be eligible under any of the other three categories so energy pod heat pumps the normal distribution wouldn’t be eligible for the tech transfer opportunity either and there will be no refrigeration applications like a standalone refrigeration application it has to be an HVAC application no standalone single-family residential domestic hot water applications and we restricted to any equipment were restricted by we won’t any equipment that’s powered by fossil fuels would be ineligible under this category so it has to be primarily powered by electric or renewable source so that completes the summary for the challenge areas so we’re going to move on to the Q&A portion so we’re going to be checking that the Q&A in the webinar we’re checking the email advanced buildings at NYSERDA NY gov and we’re going to be hopping on and off to answer the questions as we go through them so just just stay online and we’ll hop on off to answer questions now so there’s one one easy question is whether or not we could get a copy of the presentation will be made available we’re we’re recording the webinar right now so we can make that recording available and we’ll also have a clean copy of the presentation available if anybody needs that okay so there’s a question about this statement of work and budget must be submitted for each stage so the budget and cost shared limits are specific to the stage so if you submit a statement of work and budget for the development stage of the project that cost share is the 50% and then when you submit the statement of work and budget for the demonstration portion of the project that cost share would be the 40% so the cost share is defined by the stage for under which the activities are going to be taking place one clarification to that is that for the concept paper submission you’re submitting an overall budget required overall NYSERDA funding requests so you can break out the dollar amount by stage if you’d like to but you don’t have to submit the budget form with the concept paper the concept paper just requires the overall funding request it should be a ballpark amount for the funding and then if you get approved during the full proposal you’ll do a much more detailed budget about what the request says and the same with the statement of work okay so one of the questions is where we get access to New York market and building stuff to understand the install base of HVAC equipment and actually on NYSERDA’s webpage if you search for the page name is building stock and potential studies there are several several different studies that have been completed in the States and that’s the residential basis blind study in the commercial baseline study is that outlined the different aspects of the buildings in New York State and that does include the HVAC HVAC install base I believe it also includes a breakdown of HVAC installers in the state or contractors in the state so that information is available there and if you need us to link directly to it you could send us an email we can send you the link directly to the page but it’s the building stock and potential studies on nyserda’s website so there are two questions you know one are cleaning startup companies eligible and are National Labs allowed to apply and that’s also questions which all the entities be located in New York the entities do not meet as in the state that the prime entity does not need to be in New York right we are looking for solutions for New York the demonstrations have to be conducted in New York as long as the entities meeting the requirements of the challenge and the solicitation they are eligible to apply but again you know there were some requirements that we were looking for I think that would make the project successful for example in the technology technology transfer I believe you know partnering with New York State entity is a element that would make the project successful so the answer is yes they are eligible but they have to meet the requirements of the challenge and of the funding opportunity

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so there’s a question for the energy pod area and so Chris and Saul chime in but the question is for the energy pod can new technologies be adopted as components for the energy pod so new technologies so where we are looking for an all-electric solution and we are looking for a pretty aggressive time to market so not sure exactly what you mean by new technologies with everything we’ve seen it’s been some kind of a heat pump system but again I want to stress that this isn’t an academic exercise we actually are waiting on the delivery of an energy pod to actually go to the next round of pilots here for the retrofit new york program so whatever you’re going to propose be sure that you can actually deliver on building one of the questions in this comes up pretty frequently is there a list of available of recipients awardees of prior rounds and no there’s no structured list typically after rounds completed in all the projects are contracted from that round there’s a press release of some sort that would go out that would may talk about the companies and the type of project that they’re doing but there’s no standing list of projects available so the question is considering this is the final year of the multi-year PON will we still these funding feasibility stage activities which could be you know another the project length of another couple years and the answer is yes the there aren’t any other scheduled rounds of funding but once the project is fun contracted and funded they can go for several years beyond the length of the pon being available or out on the street there’s a clarification question for the technology transfer so as it’s written right now of what the TRL level needs to be as I said late stage development as it’s written right now anything with the TRL under four would not be eligible if the TRL is in the development stage which I believe is four five six seven then it would be eligible for submission but where you definitely have a preference for things that are later stage development so our thought was that the tech might end up in the

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development stage because there might be minor minor changes that need to be made to adjust it for the New York State market we’re not in this category we’re not looking to fund things that have several years of development before they’re able to be on the market has to be something that’s already commercially available somewhere outside of the state okay we have a question that is looking for clarification on one of the sub challengers it is unclear the sub challenges category definition of package terminal thank you for any clarification okay with respect to package terminal air conditioning and package terminal heat pumps they are a class of HVAC equipment where everything is in a box the same box is not a split system or part of the equipment is in the basement and part of the equipment is outside the house these are commonly found in applications of hotels and motels where there’s a hole through the wall that is approximately 16 inches high and 42 inches long it’s kind of a sleeve and the entire unit slides into this sleeve and they I’m not sure the history of how they became known as package terminal pumps but that is my explanation of what it is if you have further questions you can reach out to me after the presentation and then I can try to give you a better visualization of this okay so there’s a question could you explain more about the difference between E1 E2 versus E4 so the different categories if we have a thermal energy storage HVAC product that is available outside of the US but does not have a ul listing what category should we apply for so I think in that instance it’s commercially available outside of the US and it’s trying to you’re trying to bring it to New York State and the only changes are to do do modifications to go ul listing now apply to the tech transfer category if you’re doing development if you’re trying to take that concept and start from scratch here or do you know early feasibility and the early-stage development work I think it would apply to the thermal distribution category there’s a question of whether proposals do is they’re due on so the concept papers are due on December 12th at 3 p.m. Eastern Standard Time the full proposal due date is in February of next year but it’s tentative and sometimes gets to change based on the review of the concept papers so that if anybody if people get approved for the concert papers they’ll be made aware of the full proposal due date when they receive that award letter there’s a question does cost share for subsequent phrases phases needs to be identified plus secured it does not have to be secured but it does it should be identified or potential sources for cost share should be identified so we understand if a project is in a feasibility stage that is difficult to give specific numbers and have partners secure it for the demonstration stage but our intent is to to make sure that the proposer is mapping that out and can demonstrate to us that there are partners potential partners or potential sources of cost share available and that may be if those haven’t been secured that the some conversations have been started so that people are aware of the development work that’s going on and they’re prepped and primed for when the project might get to the demonstration stage there was a question as to whether or not biomass qualifies as a renewable source of energy the answer is yes so for the like for example for the tech transfer biomass would work is not if it’s not our fossil fuel but any equipment that’s installed any biomass equipment installed has to meet the renewable heat New York requirements which is high efficiency low emissions biomass the next question is difficult success rate if you move to full proposals over the three rounds we’re finding 40% of concept papers get invited to a full proposal and our full proposals receive 60% get an award okay so we have a question about what is the definition of a small commercial building application does this include hotels office buildings mixed-use apartment / condo buildings all of those so let’s go through this piece what hotels and offices yes our definition for an apartment that is commercial starts five units and above is what an apartment building would be would need for a commercial building certainly a mixed-use condo building would that doesn’t answer the question please contact us afterwards if you have a unique building that you’re concerned about okay so there is a question about the tech transfer category essentially technology that’s developed outside the US but has some installations in this in the case of the question they have ten installations in the US would it be eligible for the tech transfer category so for that category if it’s being installed New York would have to be the first installation of the program of the technology in New York which is typical for our field demonstration project it’s typically the technology in New York State so there’s a question of what is the total amount of funding that’s remaining for round 4 we had 15 million allocated and there have been awards made over the three rounds the right now we have commitments of around nine million dollars right so that leaves about six million dollars available of funds for this round and we we advertise it with 4 million because that’s like the average amount that we’ve been allocating per round but there’s actually six million dollars uncommitted funds that’s available okay there’s a question it says if we submit as E2 and NYSERDA thinks that should be E4 should we still or would we still qualify for evaluation so to answer the first but if anything gets submitted to us in a category we do evaluate under the criteria in that category so if you but we’re not allowed to move things between categories unless a mistake was made during the submission process and it was submitted into the incorrect category that being said if you if you believe or in reading the attachments you’re unsure about which category some should submit into you should have a discussion with one of us about that and we can tell you which category we think it is most applies to in the end the decision of which category submit into is yours we can’t we can’t specifically tell you to submit to a certain category but we can tell you which it would be most eligible under so we have a question of what is the typical value of the projects awarded the the value is limited by a couple of things it’s limited by the cost share percentage of the proposers ability to provide cost share as a percentage of the total project cost it’s going to limit the total value of the project that being said the the feasibility stage is capped at three hundred and fifty thousand dollars of NYSERDA funding and the later stages don’t have a cap other than you know total money available for the pond so the typical typical values vary pretty greatly between that as low as 100k or up to one or two million dollars okay there’s another energy pod question it was sort of a general question could you further explain what you mean by energy pod so I think Chris if you want to just give it a general explanation of that category so everyone understands it a little bit better sure so the energy pod is really what we’re referring to as a modular unit that will really serve the mechanical functions of a given apartment so we’re so in New York City for example there’s a typically centralized systems and use have to serve the entire building the energy pod is we’re thinking well two low-rise so one two three family units which would be the preference is installed exterior to the building and its own housing and really bring together all the the technologies needed to deliver the full suite of mechanical services to the building so the heating the cooling the ventilation needs domestic hot water and really doing that in a way that as integrated as possible and really reduces on-site on-site installation time as much as possible so we are looking for the complete solution so meaning both the the generation and distribution side of the solution so when you start thinking through how you’d actually pull the components together or engineer the energy pod also think about the the distribution mechanism that should be designed in tandem with that if you have additional questions please reach out and we can supply additional questions additional additional insight on that in addition in the appendix section of the pon there is a letter from the energy sprong program outlining about half a dozen manufacturers that have product available and and so and I encourage you to go ahead take a look at that particular appendix and that’ll give you a pretty detail idea of some of the products that are available for the European market there is a question is they’re interested in theory about behind the meter energy storage options under this pon and so we asume by behind the meter that we’re talking about electrical energy storage in which case that would not be eligible under any the challenge areas in this PON so naturally since we said electrical energy storage someone had a question about thermal energy storage and it could certainly be a thermal energy storage could be a component to a solution under this pon I don’t think there’s anything that has anything specific targeting thermal energy storage but if it’s as part of an integrated system I would still be eligible okay so we went through and answered all the questions of the Q&A and anything that we received an email if you have any additional questions I would go to the pon documents read through those to see if that answers it and then on each document each section of the pon there are designated contact so each challenge area will have a designated contact with a phone number and email in the main body of the pon in the pon summary there are designated contacts depending on what area you’re looking at so the technology the commercial if you have a question about the submission there’s a contact at NYSERDA and we’re available to help you with any stage you have any questions about the submission process or any questions about technology that you feel might be eligible we can talk to you through that so that means I just want to thank all the presenters today I think everybody that attended and if you have any questions just reach out to us. Thank you

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