IoT – Internet Of Things



hello everybody I'm Chris Harding the director for interoperability at the Open Group and part of my role is to be the forum director for open platform 3.0 which is the open group initiative to enable enterprises to gain business value from new technologies including the Internet of Things and also including such things as cloud computing social computing mobile computing and big data analysis but today our focus is on the Internet of Things and it's my pleasure to introduce Kerry Fram Ling who will give the main presentation he is a professor of practice in Building Information modelling at Alpha University in Finland and he is also CEO of Finnish company control things and last but not least he is the chair of the open platform 3.0 workgroup on the Internet of Things so carry over to you Thank You Teresa so since the introductions are made already I'll go straight to the presentation as so today's the summary of today's presentation is the following I'll go through some of the background of our work where it comes from why we did it and so on then go through the principles and use of the open messaging interface over my own open data format standards show a reference implementation of visa standards what can do with it which works and so on some applications for illustrating what you can do in reality quick comparison with other standards and then her conclusion so background well our work in actual at Helsinki University of Technology on the Internet of Things that started around 2000 and in a 2001 we wrote this dialogue a internet-of-things middleware which at the time it was very focused on RFID tags and so on but we actually quickly came into into the kind of Internet of Things that we are dealing with today meaning sensors intelligent products getting information from all kinds of different information sources about different products what happens to them and so on and so on uh so the figure that you can see here actually illustrates that kind of of a system then we started adjusting this EU product called promise in 2004 where we could apply all all these a different concept now in promise that the goal was to manage the lifecycle of different kinds of products in different kinds of domains so we had companies illustrated here such as a caterpillar with their their heavy machines we had a vehicle with their trucks Fiat with their course in petite with the fridges and other household devices infra con with the telecommunications equipment and so on and with all these these different companies in promise wanted to be able to do was to collect information about the usage of their products so that they could detect any kind of problems and do improve the maintenance of them as well as the design and manufacturing of all those products are based on all these collected data so in order to be able to do this for all these different companies and domains in promise we came up with some interoperability specifications that we then took and and went with the to the open group where this workgroup on the Internet of Things or actually it was called a quantum lifecycle management was they established in 2010 and finally in 2014 so lost autumn we meaning the open group and the Internet of Things working group work group published these hope and messaging interface an open data format now before I go to the next slide I would emphasize the figure that you see here so you have many different kinds of products and sensors or 40 technologies but you also have a back-end services and so on so this is the kind of view that we have had of the Internet of Things when specifying these these standards now that's a certain contrast there compared to how well it seems like most people and companies look at the Internet of Things today yet so I see a loads of different systems and platforms where the main goal seems to to connect or gather sensory information into different applications platforms as I wanna and it seems to be the case quite often even that that you might have several sets of sensors measuring the same thing at the same place but you're seeing different platforms and applications so that's what is meant by this that this point saying that data is collected into vertical silos so you would have loads of interesting useful data and information potentially available but it's difficult to use it because they are connect collected to these specific applications or platforms also if you want to do some kind of machine to machine communication that tends to be limited to to the local networks and it's a difficult or even impossible to do a bi-directional control so the challenges with this with the way the Internet of Things works today is that you actually get or gather huge amounts of data from sensors and this data keeps on being collected just because it's to be good to have loads of data and then you get this phenomenon called a big data and you sort of hope for somebody to be able to analyze this data and come up with with something useful well that might be the case but but in practice that we have seen that most of that data might not be usable or interesting even in practice also it's a hard to achieve interoperability with these between these different devices machines platforms applications and so on and finally the Internet of Things that really requires communication between systems and organizations not just local machine to machine communication so hmm what we want to enable or I think we are enabling with the open messaging interface and the open data format it's really what you can see in the red arrows here in this picture so we're not speaking so much about them so we're sensors we are more dealing with with the more intelligent products that might have or usually have sensors connected to them but hmm and then we have a DC platform suggested before now what we want to enable and think we are enabling with Oh am i an odious is that you can have direct machine-to-machine communication as why directional even over the Internet's not just locally but you can also connect these different products or information systems not just to addition the initial application that they were feeding to but also easily share information with other platforms and applications so directly from the machines to the systems or from the systems to other systems and so on so with oh my I know DFO we think the horizontal integration should be as easy as a vertical integration and even vertical integration should become much easier than it is just now when you have appropriate not for doing it so also with the Oh am i under or the FM the purpose is that you should be able to collect the data as and when needed on the flier without having to do any programming or systems integration and you should also be able to establish this kind of two-way parking limited information flows between trusted entities and the physical products when you you need it for for some reason now we'll see examples of how you can how you do that in in practicing in a moment so hmm based on on this view of over the internet well things so for the four hours for Internet of Things a workgroup it's really a question of creating and enabling systems of systems so for us okay a system could be as being bought well just an RFID tag or it could be an intelligent sense or it could be some system connected behind a gateway or it could even be an entire ERP system or the weather forecast service or a smart car but the specifications or OMI and ODF have been specified in such a way that they are agnostic in what comes to the size of the system you sort of deal with all kinds of systems in a peer-to-peer manner now mmm I already mentioned I think this product lifecycle management and what we have been calling a closed-loop lifecycle management therefore so in the last 10 years or maybe so that's a typical case where you have a system sources a need for systems of their own systems so if you take any kind of over almost well some some any kind of smarter products a let's say like this way as a truck and if you need to do to perform some maintenance on that specific truck for instance well all the information about that truck might be stored in many many different information systems owned by many different in different organizations and so on so if I want to do the maintenance on my vehicle truck for instance well at first light I will want to get access to to how the truck has been used and so different statistics are stored on the truck itself in the trucks information system but I would also like to get access to it too early or maintenance their records may be either by me or by some other organization as well as a successor to to the maintenance instructions and for that specific truck that might come from the manufacturer or somewhere else so this when you are dealing with the closed-loop lifecycle management that means that that you really are dealing with systems of systems where the systems can be embedded systems sensors or any kind of backend systems over different different coins so in this picture of the IOT it's really an enabler for accessing all this information and oh my and ODF is other standards that enable you to do it then to some other kinds of systems of systems as a Chris ed the internet or finger or the Internet of Things workgroup is a part of the open platform 3.0 forum and together with the open platform 3-year forum we have specified a certain number of use cases that are you straighten by by this picture here so here you can see also that it's really about systems or systems so if you want to do intelligent utility energy man the intelligent automotive management to telogen traffic management and so on you typically need the information coming from many different kinds of sources so in the same way or mine or DF are really enablers for these red lines that you can see here between different for enabling a ad hoc information flows between relevant to information systems for whatever it is your replication you okay so then the next part of the presentation is that you have a look at what what oh my and odious actually look like and and how you use them so as I said that they were officially published by the open group on the 16th of October in 2014 and the okay two different the two standards have different roles in the sense that the open messaging interface specifies protocol for communication while the open data format specifies standard the very generic standard for the pale order now the model for this is similar to what is being used on the web browser as a presumably most of you know for the web the cornerstone protocols and standards HTTP and HTML where HTTP defines specifies a very simple command vocabulary for accessing information while HTML is the format for for specifying the actual contents or the payloader now what you can do with with omi and OTS is that when you have some new information system or or new device that comes into into a new context so for instance i install a new new machine or nuisance or into into my home then that machine should be able to publish that it's a present there as well as tell what is the information that it can provide as well as what other services provided by it now then the building and the other systems are there they should be able to discover that okay now we have have a new information system here a new device and it provides isn't this a piece of information and these services so now we can do new things together with them with this new system doing new that assumes of course that you can communicate with it so that means that you need to have read and write operations for accessing and updating information and the one of the cornerstone operations is of course that you should also be able to subscribe to information so one information should easily be able to subscribe to information from from this new information system and contrary to many other protocols and standards that we are not using the complete publish/subscribe design pattern we are actually using the observer design pattern I won't go into them into the sort of very details in in how that differs just now both are standard so am i and ODF are specified using XML schema and one thing that makes them quite different from most or maybe even all Internet of Things to standards that I'm aware of is that they can be trusted transported by any underlying protocol molester so usually we are using HTTP or HTTPS but you can actually run over my own ODF also over FTP SMTP XMPP file transfer transfer even send send them on USB sticks plain sockets and so on now this is quite important in the sense that you can use our mine or the eff also as a standardized IOT REST API as well as as using them for machine to machine communication as well as machine to system communication system to machine and so on and so on so then some more details about the open messaging interface and here you can see all the possible operations over and the bar Asia so then so write read org and cancel now of course well the names tell it more or less directly what you can do with them with a read that you can get the current and historical information but alerts sense of values and so on this is the immediate retrieval part here you can also write information using the write operation and then the subscription operation comes here in this branch so you can do it in many different ways using callback address without callback address and you will see in a moment that you can specify for how long a subscription that should be should be valid so it can be time limited you can specify a regular income pulse for it or use event based subscriptions and you also have a piggybacking functionality that allows you to do even control through firewalls and so on and then finally the cancel operation for canceling subscriptions before they expire then the open data format them adjust as specified allows you specify a very generic object hierarchy so it's shown here on the on the right side so an old EF structure always starts with this objects object owned on the uppermost level object can contain other objects and then every object can have properties specified by info items or other sub objects and every invite and can have as a metadata about it as well as values of course and here on the left you can you can see just a simple example of how you combine over my inaudi s so this would be a write command and what or the object that is sending the write command is the smart feature that you can see here identified by a sort of generic name here in this case and it is sending the current fridge temperature setpoint under the current freezer temperature setpoint so this is a very simple example of water note Oh am i and o d FF message can look like you'll see more example examples of these in just a moment now what is more interesting is to see how you can subscriber to information so in that in this case I am using the read operation I am giving an interval over 600 seconds so I am requesting for information every 10 minutes and it should be centered over my node at this callback address and the time to leave the minus 1 means that this subscription should exist forever or until it's canceled and in this case I am using all the FS the query language so I am staying to this or telling this omi node that I want to read information the smart fridge 2 2 3 3 4 4 1 1 and the information that I want to get every 10 minutes it's the door status the temperature and consuming the electrical power measure and then once this subscription has been made I start getting this kind of response messages every 10 minutes every 10 minutes with the actual or with the same audio structure but with actual values here as you can see in the by the value tags so this these are this is sort of the basic introduction to to what it looks like now it will be become a little bit more challenging because we are passing a live ax so that's for most of standards it's it's very useful to have a have a reference implementation that shows how you can use the standards how you should use them that you can interact with the so that you can check that your implementation is compatible and also since it's published as open-source you can actually take the code as such and integrate it into your own applications so that so that done implementation effort over of getting the standards into your own system or or kept as low as possible now the plan is also to disseminate this reference implementation through this IOT I clicked set or thought and other appropriate dissemination channels and what this reference implementation implements okay we have URL based discovery and read operations and web GUI for more advanced operations it's a written in Scala in the Scala programming language which is sort of a new language that's arising at least in our university but we do also have implementations in quite a few other languages I'll quickly show you a small implementation adjuster with the simple UNIX shell script for publishing information so then I will I will jump over to to the to Google Chrome and or any any browser but in this case I am using chromis so what I will start with is showing how you can access the information using just simple URLs so if I write here the address of though a mile would slash objects I will get a list of all the objects that I have available here at the DSO and mine order then since I'm sitting in Finland I will of course go to the sonar and and see what information I have from there and I think you've got the idea already I just see what are the different sub objects and info items and then I add them to the URL and get access to to the next level then if I want to get just a roll value I can write slash value here at the end and if I want to get access to the metadata about this temperature in fight and then I just write metadata he read so well metadata can can be information such as unit manufacturer and so on to be honestly this is just an example of how you can specify metadata in practice it's recommended to users on some other kind of standard four four four device descriptions or this you the framework for instance as you defer standard that is also a developed by the open group so that was the URL based discovery and access how you can access information that way now that if you want to use the total range of possibilities and functionality of a my and ODS then you should go to this example web user interface now what I have here is the first to the address of the OMI note again it has now fetched all objects automatically that are available there so here I can select from the hierarchy from this window what information I would like to request so for the SONA for instance I take the co2 level or and humidity and temperature and then in the next step I generate the corresponding OMI and Oh DFL request now I can modify the parameters of the request from here so the time to live assess how long this message should be kept alive if it can't be delivered or if it's a subscription then it says how long the subscription should should be should be valid now the interval parameter specifies in seconds how often I want to get the values or if I specify minus one here then that means that I want to to get an event every time the term value changes so for instance that's good for monitoring door openings and closings or or let's say a fridge that's going to break down and you would like to have potentially a subscription that that is eternal but you only want to get an event when something something unexpected is happening then you do also have the possibility to specify a time frame this is if you're just doing basic and read for getting historical data between two dates you can also request for the newest end not well the newest number us available number of historical data available or the oldest ones and then you can specify a callback where where the data should be sent but in this case what I do I he said they'll just send the request and then I saw that I get a I get a response so that shows me just the current values of these of this invoice answer now in this case the piece of eight year values because since it's a reference implementation that is supposed to run anywhere if we haven't connected this one specific one to two real sensors but you'll see some some of those in just a moment okay I think that was showing what the read operation looks like now next I will jump to something a little bit more nerdy or geeky so what I have here it is I just jumped ill with my VirtualBox virtual machine with with Linux are running there now that you know try to be not to be too quickly with this but what we have here is actually a UNIX shell script that is a generic Street for generating right messages using OMI and ODF so I'll just show you that it's very short this will also be published as open source so this sort of implements the whole OMI all the effort that you need for producing this kind of right message so the formatting doesn't look that great here but that wasn't the purpose normally it would be on just one line but what you can see here it's that you have the OMI header so this is the right operation and what I am sending it's an object called a basement one because I plan to install as on temperature and humidity sensors into a room in our basement and I have three different sensors and four okay so sense or three and all three sensors provide me with temperature and humidity values now the actual physical sensors are one wire sensors and they're on the table here beside me in fact so I could show them live but and the way that you get the information from them is by defining a simpler data structure that looks like this so this system is actually running on a Wi-Fi router which we are flashed with with the Linux and install the B script on it and the fact or how the way in which we define this Ola or the effort structure that you saw looks like this so I just defined the basement one level here three sensors here and I say that they all have temperature and humidity humidity readings and if i uncomment these which I do when it's a the script is installed on the on the router then I will actually get the real values from from the sensors so the point that I want to make my showing showing this system is that you can implement and know in my node that gets real sense of values so in this case 6sn so values with real a minimal effort and on really let's say low range hardware so actually if you have look at the shell script well it's that's something that you can put or implement even on very lower range low memory and so on hardware ok I hope that at least that many of you in the audience could follow this what was happening on the Linux system so this was the reference implementation port now then I'll quickly show some some example applications as you probably can imagine over the years since 2001 we have made loads of different implementations real business applications and so on also but today I'll just show some some work that we have ongoing so as Chris Harding is at the moment go on I'm also professor or official professor in in Building Information modeling so this will be very big building focused now buildings are a typical target for for the Internet of Things smart products and so on and that's because well there are many different challenges they have long life cycles you have information coming from CAD systems from you know different machines installed coming from different manufacturers when you want to optimize your energy energy consumption and so on you need the information from what about energy prices weather forecasts weather conditions you need to be able to control different systems inside inside your your house and so on and so on so the first thing consistent well show rapidly is something that it's a system that we have implemented for one of the university buildings or all the university in helsinki so what you can do with the this system is that we have taken the character models of the building and try to use them for well first our visualizing the whole whole building and allowing you to get access to different things there but the interesting thing here is that for the moment you can get access to to the install same source and get the readings of them in this way ok so this is sort of a well 3d visualization that I made mainly because it's it looks good and and so on but what is more useful is actually this kind of a 2d view where we can visualize that heat map in this case of the different different rooms on one floor we can also change into humidity and or any other values and we have the possibility to actually go and have a panoramic view over the different some of the rooms so here in this case I'm in the corridor and apparently to flicker a little bit when I move around so I will stop here and here I can also see one of the same source where it is actually installed as well as the as the current current readings there from it now the purpose here is not just to sort of install sensors and get values from them it's really about that when we install these sensors they publish immediately that now I am here in this place and I can provide you with this information so temperature light co2 humidity under occupancy information and then the building and building itself as well so this whole visualization tool can know that okay now I have a new information system it happens to be a sensor it provides me with this the different information so then once I have all these different information sources publishing information using over my inaudi F I can combine them and build new services for energy efficiency or or combine information from access control systems from heating systems and and so on and so on now I would say speaking about this bi-directional controller quite a bit in the beginning of my presentation and I will think the Internet of Things and what we are doing should should make it possible to control or improve the way in which buildings and all other systems are or control them so what I will be showing next it is what quickly jumper back to this slider it is a system that is installed in our house in fact it's a ventilation machine that looks like this with heat recovery and so on in modern buildings that this cornerstone a piece of equipment for for making things of making buildings energy efficient now what makes this machine interesting is that immediately when you have installed it in your house and if it's connected to link at the end it will immediately give you access to this point to this user interface so from a smartphone or any kind of browser or whatever and it will tell you it's bone serial number as you can see here as well as a pin code so that you can establish an SSL secured connection all the way from from my browser to to the actual machine now this is quite important because you do have a complete security as you will see in a moment so what I can see in this window now it's the current status of the machine so HR see that I don't remember what that is to be honest but you can get access to different kinds of setpoint set but to get the connection with oh am I an ODF I will jump up to this measurementsour window here where you can see all kinds of sensor information which have been collected here in southern Finland in the last week so these are real data as you can see by the curve but you can also see that there was a real network outage here and in this case therefore these sensor values they are collected and stored with ten minutes a time interval so that's a showing this interval based subscription that for this kind of information it's enough to get it every ten minutes now that has been selected so that also the this machine maintenance provider a manufacturer can gather relevant data about these machines such as the heat recovery rate on the incoming and outgoing sides of the machine I won't go into the details about what these mean but you can actually deduce quite a lot from these values so as you can deduce how well the machine is performing but you can also see if you should change your filter so soon or if anyone has been changing their air flows or doing something that will that might eventually make your your home become will get moisture and and health problems of all kinds now what I usually show to emphasize the importance of the security invented at all things it's the co2 sensors that we have installed in two of our bedrooms so the co2 sensors are used for controlling the machine so that that the co2 level doesn't get too high at any moment and that's usually during the night because it's in the bedrooms and well from this kind of of course you can actually use a quite a lot of very sensitive information such as how many people have been miss leaking sleeping where and and so on so I want to stay here for longer at this page now so those values were collected every 10 minutes that's opposed to what you can see here actually this value successfully to it that is updated on a much more much quicker interval so in this case since the machine and the system knows that there's a browser now looking at this information then it starts updating this value with a much quicker and quicker pacer so this is to show that okay in most cases as you it's an offer to collect information every 10 minutes but when the context changes that somebody is actually looking at this and might want to roll it then you have to update information much a quicker and in this cases you can even control it the online and directly in real time so now since I happen to see it actually in my home and presenting this I can even hear the airflow we're increasing but that doesn't make a difference I could be in the United States or anywhere okay those were the demonstrations on some systems mainly because I like demonstrating real systems but it was also for showing off or linking to to the fact that or the kind of real applications that OMI and ODF have been it have been specified for so you already saw this picture in smaller earlier but as I said always my own ODF they are really made for an enabling notice a red connection so that you can see here and we have actually implemented quite many of these different kinds of of services already I think I spent more time than I expected on the earlier part of the presentation so I won't won't go into the details of this slide now about other internet or things than that there has been well due to the increased visibility of the whole internet of things there has also been a lot of internet or thing standardization activities going on but what we can see is that most of those a new standards are really much more less machine to machine standards such as the MQTT co-op and so on which are binary standards using TCP or UDP as their underlying protocols which gives you some challenges and going through firewalls and also when they are you putting on mobile devices and so on even though you can come over that using for instance WebSockets but the main thing is that these protocols are not really intended nor suitable for system-to-system communication in the sense that that I showed you earlier meaning weather forecast services and so on they are really intended for being implemented on on low range cheap hardware and with the with slow connections also this new standards also use a publish/subscribe model rather than using the observer model I'm not going to the details about this is neither but that using publish/subscribe model is usually signal for a start you have to have a more powerful server machine that actually handles the most of the data with observer it's a much more much easier and intuitive simple to do peer-to-peer communication between any systems so then the other end of the standard perspective is or the rest api so now there are many many internet of things that platforms and systems and applications that provide you with rest api for community communicating with them but in reality as you know a well rest is not a stand that is just an architectural model of you should build web systems and most or just not all all Internet of Things rest areas that I have seen so far or have been proprietary so there's really a huge huge number of different REST API wise for the Internet of Things and integrating with them and communicating with them is not a mediator at all so the conclusions well in the best case we think that over my and over the F will do the same thing for the integral things as HTTP and HTML for the web meaning that they would be a sufficiently generic and good to be usable for anybody for publishing information and that there wouldn't be a the tens of different standards used by different different organizations service companies as you saw well over my effort they enable you to create a new internet all saying systems or systems also without programming just in the same way that you can publish information using HTML and HTTP without doing any programming then this keep it simple well the omi specification is that when one page is all the F is ten pages so I think we have managed to keep it simple but that's also because the we have been working on these specifications over many years going through many real-life implementations and so on so they are pretty mature and as well nobody knows who actually said this thing that I didn't have the time to write a short letter so I wrote a long one instead that's what that's something that also applies to or am i and ODF we have been improving them a lot over the times over so now that we claim that they are generic compact complete and they also extensible for for for using many in all kinds of applications IOT applications at least so anyway so well we all know about the challenges of interoperability and when we start implementing when we really want to go for the internet or things sort of a physical systems and so on it will be a nightmare with if we don't come up with the with some generic star that's such as so am i an odious that can do the same thing for their internet or things as HTTP and HTML 4 for the web well thank you Carrie that was a that was a fascinating presentation for me at least and I see we have a pretty significant number of questions I don't know we'll have time to get through all of them but let's see if we can at least get through some of them let me start with one a fairly basic level which is about whether we could increase efficiency perhaps by reducing the the overhead in the XML envelope and specifically why not use JSON instead of XML has has the project team thought about that at all yes we have actually when we started specifying all my and the ODF Jason was not a big thing but one reason for I'll just jump quickly here one reason also for using an XML schema is that that it's sort of more rigorous and formal tool for specifying a disk understand that rather than using a JSON prototypes or or similar but as you know well you can translate XML quite the more les121 into into JSON and we have actually done that in real implementations okay so what you're saying basically is each state should be possible to use JSON but it's not a part of the standard at this point but it's something that would still be considered perhaps for a future future version just okay let's combine two questions there I'll probably be combining two at this point let me let me do another straightforward on one hopefully first if there is from Paramesh is there any limitation on the maximum length of the data and total camp specified for information info items no there's none okay so that's and can we embed a sensor email message or something similarly complex insider info item any element I don't remember exactly what sensor ml looks like but the answer is yes we have the you we have a in real applications also used even CSV for instance as info item values because with all yet so you can you can have at least the column names as a metadata for instance so if you want to make it a more compact er then you can do it this way so here's another question from short are the companies producing the readers writers such as rfid buying in or is this simply an academic standard well I don't think they're RFID reader producers will be doing it because they they are more focused on EPC is which is a global standard that which even that hasn't been completely adopted well it's sort of a tricky question in the sense that it's not an academic exercise because my company and many other companies have been implementing a visa standards in their own systems but it's there's of course a huge challenge in take-up of newsstand that's why by companies so that's why we are pushing these reference implementations also in order to make it maybe easier okay that perhaps you might be worth saying something of more about the the promised project and the what LED impact the requirements as to why the why the protocols were developed and took home that they did and what was the what was the reasoning behind for example adopting the observer pattern rather than publish/subscribe okay but the requirement says oh I mentioned that we had these catapillar machines and and trucks and so on which already have have their own embedded controllers on them as well as RFID tags and so on so well written well the requirements are okay industrial companies participating in that project and I guess they they had some input as to what would be useful features in the protocols we were actually implementing this with we had a sleek six different industrial implementations over of the predecessors over or mile and odf and that included SJP for instance it really came from real requirements of real products real systems of real companies definitely even even though this dialogue a platform was it was developed for real industrial equipments for tracking shipments in multi organizational projects over the world okay there's a question any suggestion or a point of contact to begin getting one feet wet from mahmud well I think if you're member of the open group of the one good thing to do would be to join the Internet of Things workgroup or open platform work and then I also had this a link and now for accessing at the the software which is the one in github just now it's a temporary one we will move this somewhere else at all that could be published through the internet of things that work as well as the place where you saw the reference implementation so people could go to to get heaven and get something that they could could start start playing with yep you can get that already now in fact but I would maybe not recommend doing it straight away then again yeah why why not but there might be some some more things to clean up first oh okay it seems the Internet of Things is from jazz bender kind of things use cases are more for construction and manufacturing industries you have any thoughts about other industries such as banking finance insurance or other services based ones to be honest and no I guess there could be but it is not something that that I have personally been working with okay I guess in principle a sensor is a sensor whether it's on a on a digger or on a cash machine but you haven't sort of had experience in ordinary thinking specifically no but I I should add something we have applied a Mayan ODF also to design in processes where different designers in different companies that can subscribe to to changes in design documents made by by other designers in other companies so this subscribing for subscribing to any kinds of events happening such as a document being updated or or a part of a CAD model without being updated you can also like that in at least in the design domain I guess it's in finance as you could also subscribe to I know where the price of a certain stock paper falling radically or or subscribing to stock paper prices why not why not because they are in fact quite quite general standards but if course they as you say they did the center of requirements study for them has has more been in the in areas such as manufacturing ok so there are some other questions that we haven't had time to get to and show that we haven't been able to do that but but thank you everybody for participating and fax particularly Kerry for your your presentation thank you very much everybody

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