Hydrogen Hype or Hope Innovation Insights – Webinar

good morning everyone my name is Maya Zia Zafar I'm joined by my colleague Pauline Blanc we are your hosts for today's webinar and also the co-authors of the council's hydrogen brief thank you everyone for joining us so early in the morning and from I think from all over the world we hope the next 45 to 50 minutes is an interactive townhall type of session where we all learn from each other a few housekeeping things before we start the way we will run this webinar is sort of like a town hall meeting we have three guests a guest experts that pauline and i will interview starting with a couple of starter questions and then hoping and relying on you to ask most of the questions and i can tell you in a second how to ask those questions our guests are nigel brandon Dean of the Faculty of engineering of Imperial College here in London Craig Knight director of industrial solutions for horizon fuel cell technology and Dan Sadler age 21 project manager for is equal are we interviewed each of these three gentlemen as part of our insights brief and they are all equipped to answer all of your policy vision as well as of course technical questions around hydrogen now how can you ask questions you can submit your questions via that little icon question icon you can either tell us if you want to be named or remain anonymous we will read the question aloud and direct it to one of our guest speakers if you would like to share a comment please do the same use the same icon and please identify if you want to be named or not and because we have over a hundred people on this webinar we have turned off the talk function it will be a master to talk of each other so those are the logistics before we jump into questions I want to tell you why the council is working on hydrogen and ask you a question first the council has a presence in nearly 100 countries and with that we have a very wide network of energy policy makers and leaders in doers who shape the energy agendas at national regional and global scale and the council's goal is to bring solutions that can be affordable reliable and secure as you go through your energy transitions hydrogen we think is a solution that enables a decarbonized energy system and that's what we've been looking at use cases that have a decent shot at making this happen so that's why we're involved now let me ask you something in the in yes I mean all I believe there's about 135 people on the line all 135 of you the question that will pop up on your screen and you simply have to choose an answer that best fits your perspective the question is in which sector do you see hydrogen playing a role in 2040 a mobility B heat C industrial processes D power generation EE all of the above or F none of the above please do us a favor and take the and click on one of them I will give you a few more seconds to click on the response of your choice okay you guys almost there okay now thank you for submitting that I'm also gonna ask your question at the end of the webinar so it'll be the same process and then we'll share the information with everybody okay I want to now quickly ask Pauline who is the main author of the hydrogen work that we did to give you a brief of the findings of our exploratory interviews which is the basis of our hydrogen brief Pauline take it away thank you very much merci else and good morning everyone and thank you for joining this webinar so working with our members the council produces three flagship tools which I'm sure you have heard of we have the trilemma the issues monitor the scenarios and since last year the innovation work stream has been focusing on emerging trends and their potential to impact on energy systems and the topic of hydrogen with selected based on the issues monitor survey this is a global survey of energy leaders which we have been conducting every year since 2009 and what we notice is that in the past few years the survey displayed a heightened sense of urgency to mainstream the production and consumption of hydrogen for some of our Asian member committees specifically Korea China and Japan and when we started focusing on the topic the main question that we asked ourselves was whether hydrogen was going through another high cycle like in the 70s over 2000 or whether there was realistic hope this time around we conducted 36 interviews in 18 countries and we interviewed people who come who's at the forefront of the hydrogen uptake in Japan Korea Germany UK as well as in countries which are trying to position themselves in order to make the most of it such as France Australia Chile Saudi Arabia and they concluded from these interviews is that all the science points toward the fact that hydrogen is here to stay and this is because of a series of coexisting factors we have the implementation of climate change policies around the world under need to find decarbonization solutions beyond electrification we have the fact that following renewable crisis is opening new opportunities or green hydrogen produced by electrolysis and we have the fact as well that growing grow of growing hydrogen government targets namely China which seems to be replicating what it did with solar and batteries and from our interviews this is driven by air pollution concerns but Craig can tell us a little bit more about it in a second um so for example in 2018 the subsidy for fuel cell passenger vehicles was about thirty thousand dollars for each car and forty four thousand to seventy four thousand for a small sized truck or or buses but despite the many projects and government commitments with which are being announced all around the world hydrogen still has many important obstacles to overcome and these include the price of clean hydrogen itself but also the hardware to use and under the key challenge is the infrastructure to store and transport hike again a key question is whether we can repurpose again existing infrastructure or whether we're talking about new infrastructure these are similar challenges that in the past but we're convinced that this time around climate agency and the requirement for seasonal storage are definitely changing the game Thank You Pauline so we I have some of my own questions are some of our own questions but yesterday we got a couple of questions from you guys I'll go ahead and start with that to encourage more questions coming in one of the questions that we got and this goes to Dan to this actually if professor Brown then if you could take this on that would be great the question is I would like to ask the experts what do they think about the deployment of hydrogen blended with natural gas for the reduction of co2 emissions and household heating one of the main limitations and challenges and is it possible to think of a quota policy like the ones and biofuels I know that's a mouthful let me know if you if you need clarification professor no it's fine I can have a go at that so the ability to put hydrogen into natural gas and obviously we can do that it depends on the rules and regulations in the country and different kind have different rules and regulations the UK for example has a rather tight specification on the amount of hydrogen that can be blended into natural gas other countries like Germany have a higher specification so I think from a safety point of view the general consensus that you could put perhaps a 10% by volume hydrogen and natural gas possibly more than that without difficulty that's helpful in providing a market for hydrogen at the early stage of its adoption you know 10% by volume of hydrogen and a natural gas grid is actually of course very large amount of hydrogen it is however nowhere near sufficient to meet the carbon abatement targets because whilst it lowers the carbon footprint of that gas it's not significantly lowering it so for me it's an interesting opportunity to bootstrap up the market for hydrogen for low carbon hydrogen but it's not an end destination if we wanted to go to higher contents of hydrogen in natural gas then you start to need to think about the the end-use applications because if you're going to burn that you need to think about the it changes the burning the combustion characteristics and the flame characteristics so you need to adapt the burner if we wanted to go to a hundred percent hydrogen and there's a lot of work going on at the moment there's quite a bit here in the UK to understand just what is involved in converting an existing gas network into a hydrogen carrying gas Network I think the general view at the moment is that there's nothing kind of fundamentally there's no fundamental barrier to that but we do need to look at the specifics and absolutely confirm the safety case for it and that's work that's going on at the moment so professor you know in doing the interviews and also just just my own background working for Southern California gas company for a while I thought that there was some sort of there's an a technical barrier and that the pipelines themselves not the transmission pipelines but the distribution pipelines needed to be either coated with something or replaced from is there any technical barriers yes so you that is the case but and your report mentions it that it depends what the pipelines are made of in the UK we've been replacing our old metal pipes with plastic pipes and those plastic pipes are safe to carry hydrogen hydrogen has a couple of characteristics that make it difficult to move around one is it's a very small molecule so it's very good at leaking out of little gaps so you have to look at the integrity the leak integrity of the pipe and secondly it come in brittle certain types of metals which obviously create a mechanical problem but with plastics that's fine so for the low the low pressure end of the system that sort of solution is fine there's quite a different set of challenges at the high tier if you have a high pressure distribution systems to the majority of the pipelines that deliver for example hydrogen to individual homes and buildings then effectively realigning the existing metal pipeline with a plastic lining which is good to do any way to prevent natural gas leakage which is the motivation behind the program is in the UK where we have a relatively old gas infrastructure we don't want that methane to leak because it's ugly you know it's a potent greenhouse gas and so that you know the expectation but the works going on at the moment – absolutely demonstrated is that by these replacement plastic linings we'll label that that pipeline to be used for up to 100 percent hydrogen thank you so another question that we got and I will throw this to all of our three experts in other this is a question that keeps coming on so somebody asked us yesterday even if you could produce hydrogen cheaper well because falling renewable prices or what have you now that you produce hydrogen great what about transporting hydrogen from where you're producing it to your to the demand centers the transport of hydrogen is so very expensive so I like to maybe start with Craig if you could let me know what your thought is on this on the cost of transport Craig can you hear me I um then our professor Brandon since I have you on the line nice and smooth can you take this on while I figure out where how I can turn on Craig's audio sure I mean there are a range of choices and while we talk about hydrogen we could also think about other hydrogen carriers like ammonia and so it will depend a lot it will depend on how far you want to move the hydrogen and the scale you want to move it you know you can move hydrogen at the smaller scales with trailers and jib trailers is you can move it at the longer scales with pipelines and you can move it internationally at least in principle with shipping a bit like LNG that said shipping liquid hydrogen which is much colder than liquid natural gas is as yet not commonly done and we are aware that there is a program in in Japan to to build a ship to do that and to demonstrate it some how well that was how well that works and there's certainly quite a strong set of interests at the moment in principle and also thinking about taking that hydrogen to ammonia and then ammonia is much easier to move around the world and then cracking it back to hydrogen or even using the ammonia so so these things doing care costs but I have to say that putting in large cables to move low-carbon electricity around is also a very expensive thing to do and in fact moving energy by type it's a lot cheaper than moving is down a copper wire at scale so any any transition we make in which we want to move large amounts of low-carbon energy around will incur and infrastructure costs and in fact it's the infrastructure cost benefits in my view that are one of the major benefits of hydrogen and then in other words it's cheaper from an infrastructure perspective despite these issues that yes hydrogen pipelines are expensive it's cheaper because we have some existing infrastructure already it may be where we could repurpose infrastructure that obviously generates a cost saving but we have to compare the overall cost of transitioning to a low-carbon energy system with hydrogen and without hydrogen or with a hydrogen carrier on without a hydrogen carrier and so we know that a transition to a low-carbon energy system will incur cost it's a matter of what's the overall lowest cost that brings you to an energy system that is socially acceptable and sustainable we so that's where the balance of infrastructure costs need to be taken into account and one of the merits that hydrogen has as a low the low carbon molecule is that we can move large amounts of it relatively affordably because moving large amounts of low carbon electricity is also extremely expensive ok thank you Craig so can you go ahead and take this on I think I think we've turned you on turned your volume on okay so I'm gonna I'm gonna move it back to Dan then then what do you think of this the cost of transport is is it cost prohibitive does that make hydrogen cost prohibitive okay can you hear me okay yes if you could speak a little louder that would be great yeah I've not been able to hear a lot of the webinars or apologies do you mean the cost of comes fall within the network yeah so one of the questions that we got yesterday from the participant is great if hydrogen is is going to be cost effective in producing it but what about the cost of transporting hydrogen from the production to the demands letters I mean the reality comes for in the hydrogen it's minimal versus the gossip adjuvant produced at any scale I mean once you start getting into your gigawatt capacities it's a different ballgame so if you're looking at pH 21 north of England recall the recommendation there was that you build a new transmission system and that's that's powerful because you need your existing transmission system to main gas and maintain gas supplies but also to ensure the integrity of the pipeline the big prize is if you can reuse the thousands upon thousands of existing gas distribution network that's already in place so you know nothing to cheaper than a do-nothing option but now melting steel nothing isn't an option what we've got is we've got just networks all over the world that have the round capacity the transport are dodging with the same level of energy security and so is that the big cost element is the production at the scale it's not the transportation okay I'm gonna try quick my fingers crossed Craig can you hear us I can hear you I've been able to hear you all along Oh perfect and now we can hear you okay I had a small problem I was connected to the webinar but I was also connected via a phone call because I thought it would be better audio quality but I could not get the thing to unmute from the phone call and unfortunately your unmuting on the webinar app didn't didn't work on the phone call so I'm sorry about that oh it's okay it's okay so I think you know we've heard from from professor Brandon and from Dan about the transport if you have if you'd like to talk about that that would be great and I also want to ask you about China because as we were as we were interviewing in the exploratory interviews we stumbled on to China when we were talking to you and you told us a tremendous amount of subsidies that they're putting forth actually so firstly thanks very much for having me and I'm really sorry about the technology problems I will make one comment about the transport or kind of energy delivery consideration I think one of the greatest benefits of hydrogen besides some of the comments already made can you hear me yes yes besides some of the comments already made and in the effort to decarbonize I think one of the terrific benefits of hydrogen is also the capacity to make it make it where you need it so obviously with traditional energy infrastructure there is very little flexibility to make energy where you need it the only thing you can do is generate power from something like solar which tends to make the power not necessarily when you need it whereas with hydrogen obviously if you can if you can generate it where you need it then you get away from all of the transmission issues of you know traditional power grids and traditional utility infrastructure so I think that's a great benefit of hydrogen that can manifest itself in many ways now to just comment on China that's a bit of a jump I realize in topics but if people are interested in a little context on China the major push within China on hydrogen is transport related and this is mostly about both air quality improvement and energy independence so as everybody is probably aware China has moved in the last 2530 years to electrify life vehicles such as scooters and small cars and that sort of stuff to get them off combustion engines and anyone that's been to China in the last 20 years would would have seen that the streets are littered with scooters but none of them are combustion engines they're all they're all batteries battery based scooters racing around so China pushed heavily to electrify those you know small vehicles getting away from the small smelly you know two-stroke engines and that sort of stuff that used to power those things years ago excuse me and we're very successful in basically banning combustion engines on some of those lightweight vehicle classes from cities they just banned them from cities and then in more recent times the government has realized that a lot of the air quality problems around the cities were more from the diesel engines of urban buses and delivery trucks you know parcel fan type delivery trucks doing pretty heavy-duty cycles of driving around the city all day moving passengers or parcels and these vehicle classes contribute you know to a lot of the air pollution so the government has introduced incentives to move those vehicle platforms onto an electric electric bass the problem is that with heavy duty cycles you can't really survive on batteries alone because you don't have enough time to to charge the vehicles in between you know usage patterns so by going to hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicles where the the usage is a lot more like it is with a liquid fuel these a lot in particular your your kind of use case scenario doesn't change you drive it for five or six hours and you go back to base and you fill it up with fuel and then the next driver drives it for five or six hours and comes back and fills it up with fuel and then another driver can do it for five or six hours so the the use case is very similar from diesel to hydrogen and that's the great benefit when moving to these high utilization heavier vehicles like buses and and trucks and so on so the the the lessons in China are I think a very poignant because people are looking at moving from diesel to electric for buses and trucks in some parts of the world and so they're introducing battery based systems which is fine for some use cases but for the high utilization scenarios let me jump in and just us we got a question from the audience see what about the four hundred thousand-plus electric buses operational in China so I guess the question you know just a little bit if if China has 400 or 500 thousand electrical buses why focus on hydrogen is it if there's some different is it cheaper is it better you know why focus on it okay that's a great question so the 400,000 electric buses in China are exactly why the government is focusing on hydrogen now because the the 400,000 buses can do so much but you can't get to 100% penetration there are many many hundreds of thousands of buses more that are still running on diesel so you can't get to the high utilization bus deployments on batteries alone you need something that functions a bit more like the way that the liquid-filled systems work and that's what hydrogen does for for those bus deployments so there there are certainly there's certainly a lot of value in battery electric buses and yes there are almost half a million battery electric buses in China which represents well over 90% of the global base of battery electric buses but China knows better than anybody where the limitations of those systems are my hydrogen is a good idea and that's why they're now pushing hydrogen and they've backed off the incentives on battery based systems because they've realized that they're hitting the ceiling on the the relevance of battery pure battery electric buses for example we thank you thank you so much the next question I'm going to direct it to professor Brandon it comes from Miko Verona and I hope I pronounced that name correctly how do you see utilization of hydrogen in methanol production and storying trance morning and any news okay so yeah this is meta knowledge that is a indeed a potential liquid carrier of hydrogen if we make that methanol not from natural gas but you know we utilize a low carbon hydrogen as part of the synthesis process toward that methanol and methanol had a lot of interest in the early days let's say of hydrogen or fuel cell cars where there was a lot of focus on using methanol as the liquid carrier and then converting that using an onboard reformer on the vehicle into hydrogen that would then run a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle and there was an awful lot of interest in that some number of years ago the automotive company has moved away from methanol for transport for their transport applications because of technical challenges in balance in the size of the reformer and in the transient response essentially of the integrated methanol reformer fuel cell system and moved to compressed hydrogen which is what we see today in the buses that Craig was just mentioned and and in the in the cars that are driving on around the roads today so it's a good question you could certainly use methanol methanol is not without his challenges it you know it is a it is a carcinogenic material so one has to clearly have to make certain it's safely contained and it also is water soluble so you have to be very careful that it doesn't leak and get anything going there are some challenges with methanol but there's absolutely no if we wanted to go if X of Lee revisit and go back to a liquid hydrogen carrier methanol would be certainly a candidate for that I'm not seeing a huge focus on it when I look around at what people are doing today and there seems to be a stronger focus on ammonia rather than methanol as as a carrier for that sort of bulked an alternative bulk distribution of hydrogen and there indeed are other liquid carriers like dimethyl ether that one might consider it as as a liquid carrier of the hydrogen soaps there's no reason we couldn't look at it I'm not seeing a huge amount of interest in it okay so we have a few more questions and we have a statement and I'm gonna I'm gonna read the statement aloud and I'm gonna see if down has a observation on this so the statement is I think from antonia fired and the statement is that 10% of volume of hydrogen that is currently possible to blend in the natural gas grid represents a problem to any end use namely specifics as industry or CHP plans I think it's a funny thing 21 because is based on a hundred percent and I think I think blending is often all that simplifies over simplified and I think that statement is a good example of where is over City side because it's correct I mean if you've got CNG fueling station off you gas network they can assume percent but so you know blended I think there's an argument that's so it's like Nigel said initially blending made given initial markets or – production because it's these connected to a gas network and people can use it but we we don't want to oversimplify that saying air would you just stick it in anywhere because we simply can't I mean there's issues with billing because it allows the calorific value are the end-users bettering the specific areas but also from a climate change perspective you know Jason he's almost broadly relevant in the context of real climate change targets your 10% blend these are three percent carbon savings so unless you're going to get two hundred percent it's kind of a why bothering to get to understand them yet you have to adapt the end-use so you solve the problem so you know I think blending it's a good point that it is often oversimplified through the wildy applications where it's relevant but the other thing that we seem to figure out when we talk about blending in since percentages of plan is that we're not really talking on earth on a scale where we get a ubiquitous a 10% blended the UK you know I mean that's a 10% while in the UK is 30 kilowatt hours of hydrogen 30 million million plus hours of hydrogen but would have to be distributed evenly others names have seen also in demand which means that that can't really happen so what you might get is blending in local areas this mind you where there's significant constrained energy issues and where the downstream and uses the connection at that blum blum safely it provides a quick and easy market but knowing the time or meeting the 25 change target will need to be thinking much bigger blending and that's when you get into gigawatt scale actually production and conversion to 100% which which complains a heat power generation transport on industrial decarburization thank you so much so we got a question from India and I will see what the three of you whoever wants the answer from an LCOE perspective how electric how are electric vehicles and hydrogen place and and the experts I'm afraid I don't know what asking you es I'm hoping you guys you levelized cost of energy I mentioned perfect thank you so you can answer Craig well I wouldn't I wouldn't focus on the cost of energy when you talk about vehicles I'd be I'd be focusing on the total system cost because with a vehicle you've got everything from obviously drive trains and and the bodies of the vehicle and the operation and maintenance and you know the cost of repair and replacement of of we're worn and torn parts and all the rest of it through the lifecycle of the vehicle I would say that the full life cost of hydrogen based fuel cell electric vehicles will be lower than then internal combustion engine vehicles within the next ten years the main reasons for that are twofold the first one is there is simply a lot less maintenance and that's one of the things that we're learning in a market like China where there are so many electric vehicles that the maintenance costs are just so much lower than traditional IC II based vehicles the second thing is that residual value in in the fuel cell that you know one of the main cost drivers of your vehicle residual value is relatively high to to the company that's able to repurpose the Platinum and there's probably almost everybody knows you can repurpose you know ninety five percent plus of the Platinum that's in a fuel cell at end of life and that's a significant cost driver in your system but the while the system cost is still higher today upfront I would argue that at a 10-year whole of life cost kind of total cost of ownership of a hydrogen based system can already be lower than diesel even today but certainly within the next 10 years it'll be de rigueur that it's it's lower cost than IC e based system so I don't know what other people think of that but that's certainly my view any comments from Professor Brandon are done yeah I'll chip in so I mean I I agree with those points I think you can also look at what's the cost relative to a battery electric so those comments I think I've absolutely valid you know comparing electric vehicles to internal combustion engine vehicles I think with it's really down to the sweet spot which has already been mentioned I Craig around you know hydrogen start our hydrogen electric vehicle a hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicle starts to win out economically over a battery electric vehicle as the range requirements go up to the amount of energy you need on the vehicle goes up or as besides the vehicle goes up to the energy needed goes up because battery costs you know scale linearly you know you need ten times the energy you need ten times the battery so the weight and cost of that goes up so there's a trade-off between vehicle size and duty cycle we are on purely economics grounds the hydrogen fuel cell version of that electric vehicle will become a cheetah vehicle to operate in the battery electric vehicle so that that's the direction of travel and fuel so hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicles share many of the components of the battery electric vehicle so all of the advances that have been made in electric motors in control architecture and inverters are equally valid to a hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicle as a battery electric vehicle the difference really I would point to is obviously the fuel cell is one difference and the other difference is the hydrogen tank and I think those hydrogen tanks are an area where we need to see cost down at the moment they're rather bespoke handmade almost and therefore expensive and their fourth unit is looking at a man moving those to a mass manufacturing scale it is going to be important too to take out quite a lot of the cost of a current hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicle thank you so much so down before you respond let me throw another question at you so you can respond to both we keep getting this question in different forms this is from Ben Smith the question is should we just not bother with blending and aims we're going to state that 100 percent hydrogen question I mean the context and came in two perspectives on significant changes to the energy system so the reality is talking about blending on a small scale where you've got some constrained energy he's not actually a particularly strong climate change accident it's it's an economic argument and it's a maybe a beneficial argument for helping support the deployment and increase in the electrolyze project for example which is good but the point is that the evidence for a hundred percent conversion than the evidence for any sort of a scale blending which is never going to be much more intense and you know it heroically optimistic was it Wednesday and well actually in place at the same time and it's not like you knew an incremental set of 10 and 20 then 30 then partly because once you start to get multiple 10 or 20 depending on what's on the end of the network you have to do this conversion to understand I think we're serious about the urgency of climate change emitting painting climate change targets in mind you we have to be doing much bigger much more ambitious conversions you know we've done Gascon burns from towns Custer natural gas which is across the world and we did it me OK 966 7 and mind you is we have to be more ambitious because if we can convert us networks a hundred percent hydrogen or even just build the transmission systems ready for those conversions then what we're doing is providing all convey lability attachment point of inks which means you can use if I heat mind you is you know blending may have some local benefits and if you can do it and there's no issues get on with it but it's not actually from a country or global perspective solving the problem is it's playing nicely with politics as opposed to outspend really decision thank you professor this question goes to you we have lots more questions domina I'm going to go through these professor Brown and the question is the chemical industry including fertilizer needs huge amounts of hydrogen as molecules what is the potential to replace the fossil feedstock for these big centralized baseload type consumers and the question is coming from dark Mary a so I mean it's a really good question and it's a really good point which is that if we going to make low carbon hydrogen at scale the first and best thing to do with it is to replace fossil hydrogen at scales and that's that's the first thing we should do it's a high-value product right it's a molecule it's not a fuel and it carries more value and it directly replaces a brown hydrogen from from natural gas or from coal ore however producing it so it is the first thing we should do which is to replace existing Brown hydrogen with green hydrogen and there's no efficiency loss in a conversion process it's a direct light for likes and so absolutely great thing to do okay okay the next question is is for earthquake many countries like India are moving swiftly to electrify transport fleet do you see any possibility of countries moving directly to hydrogen in the medium time or two-thirds wheelers will prefer being electric and four-wheelers will go for hydrogen I think professor Brennan very succinctly stated before the kind of natural trade-offs that emerged between battery electric and fuel cell electric so in fact these things kind of coexist and sit next to each other on these product Maps and if you listen to the likes of Toyota or Honda or Hyundai if you listen to their ideas about where electrification is going it's not battery versus fuel cell at all and just like Professor Brendon said before fuel cell utilizes all of the advances in electric drivetrain Systems electric motors and all the other stuff that go into the DC based power systems so all of our balance of layered stuff is becoming you know much more mature all the time for fuel cell electric because of battery electric innovation which is terrific for all of us and costs are coming down fairly rapidly so these things kind of sit next to each other on a product map basically if you've got a fairly light vehicle with a fairly modest duty cycle through through the day through its you know daily operation then you can stick to a battery and you won't have any compromise if you've got a heavier vehicle physically heavier as well as a more demanding utilization pattern through the 24-hour periods then you will kind of be forced to use hydrogen because it's the only way that you can get to a higher utilization on a daily basis you just don't have time to charge in some of these applications so there are some fuel cell based motive systems now that are running around 20 hours a day and if you do that with batteries I just don't know how you do that without a whole lot of battery changes and a whole lot of equipment to do so and it's a not a simple process at all to tear out batteries from these these vehicles so I do think that these technologies are complimentary and they they are helping each other actually although a lot of people view it as an either/or thing we don't view it that way at all and we we see that the fuel cell broadens the applicability of electric vehicle systems it starts with batteries and then at most of your cells when you need more range or you need to power heavier duty have physically heavier vehicles and or operate more hours in a day basically okay and the next question I I think it's a very important question we we've talked about this during the interview so I like all three of you to respond to this beginning with Dan then professor Brandon then Craig and this is a safety question the question that comes to us from Stefan how do you think that the three accidents in Norway u.s. and South Korea will affect the near future development I'm in the Gulf industry if we need to put things in perspective accidents regrettable and and obviously going to investigate I didn't like anything you should be and then safety systems should be put in place to manage them but the gas industry historically is is one of the faces say in this in the world in any UK up to 90 percent of homes in cities have natural gas which is an X Wells inflammable gas just like hydrogen the next welded wonderful gas just like pound gas with an X welding money gas in hounds and this is not you stuff what what you do is you get responsible operators who have detailed asset management systems in place and convincing evidence we need to always quantify this I mean you know on an all-electric world there's a lot more people killed from electrocution and then there are from gas problems which is it is just a reality so we have to manage the risk but obviously in incidents and it shows the need for proper regulation and and proper monitoring so there is a manager role while using the experts so the incidents where you carry now or operating or managing any energy vector and safe you seem to get to an absolute minimum and but you know I might think specifically a mobility question I mean in terms of our scale deployment of hydrogen or flexible power generation for he for mobility I don't think in the long term it should have a particular detrimental effect because the timescales and need is too great to get clean systems in place okay so actually Kragen hotter Brandon we have a lot of questions and a lot of really good ones with five minutes left so let me move to the next question and this goes to excuse me professor Brandon the overall losses from production to wheels over sixty percent for hydrogen vehicles compared to twenty five to thirty percent four V's do you see these figures changing much in the next ten years so yeah it's it's true because each energy conversion step has a loss and you can make hydrogen at about seventy percent efficiency we work with today's electrolyzers and men's converse added about 70 percent efficiency to attractions power using a fuel so I think the fuel cell efficiency number and Craig might want to comment but you know I think it's that whilst there may be technological advances that take out costs and all sorts of things I think need at the end of the day you've got some seven and AMEX in there which probably 6u is about 70% for the fuel cell as a max there are some electrolyzer technologies which are not yet mature which use high-temperature electrolysis rather than low temperature and high temperature electrolysis is thermodynamically much more favorable than low-temperature which could if we scale that up significantly improve the efficiency of the electrolyzer step and at the moment we don't have that technology available but if we did that would shift that electrolyzer efficiency provided we also had a source of some low carbon heat probably from a weighty process up towards close to 100 percent actually because you recuperate the heat into the process so that has the prospect of overall increasing that system's overall efficiency but we also must have just focused on efficiency of course efficiency matters but so does cost and and so does functionality so it comes back to the points we've made earlier about where these systems start to play a role and we coarsely pay attention to efficiency but it's not the only thing that matters but Craig might want to just comment briefly on the fuel cell efficiency point so I think you've covered it very well professor Brandon David and then which does play a role you can't produce electricity without some heat in a fuel cell and therefore you do have a lead on your electrical efficiency so the only systems where you can enjoy a significantly higher overall system efficiency are those where you are able to use that work that yes down I'm going to ask you the question what will bubble fuel tomorrow's deep sea shipping is it liquid hydrogen ammonia LNG or a mixture of all I mean what I'm suggesting people on the call if you want to make some climate change now there on the corpse he'll carry part of the Committee on climate change early independent advisor UK government they recommended really quickly marry decarbonization any college trains the often are economic to electrifying and should be looking at hydrogen or potentially ammonia as a fuel source certainly in America and probably ammonia and the thing we need to remember we link with hydrogen in terms of shipping it in that doesn't actually exist at the moment and the energy penalties and the technology and my only as shipped around the world to a million tons per year it's approve and understood technologies produced a scale opposite galvanized and you know the Committee on climate change in the UK recognized our Greek 225 terawatt-hours of hydrogen by 2050 town any chance meeting that Journal and that we need to do carbon and maritime with plate ammonia so you know but I think that the keep our energy he's not an argument about electric versus hydrogen you need both and you need both at massive scale so we really need you just get on with your point and whichever application is most appropriate is we're gonna get diversity so we don't thank you so much down tear gas exports I don't want to take too much of everybody's time we said 50 minutes we're almost there I want to ask everybody that's still remaining on the call one last poll questions and again this will appear on your on your screen do you think that the hydrogen economy is going through another cycle of hype or do you think the hydrogen is here to stay so either click a for hype or click B for here to stay and we would really appreciate it or a few seconds to respond okay I see that more is here to stay but not everyone has voted that's continuing please go ahead as you're voting and please continue to vote this is important to us I just want to thank everyone this has been very interesting especially to our three guest experts the council will follow up with organizing a few workshops and a few innovation forms in different regions of the world to encourage policy makers and investors and innovators to have a serious look into the success factors of hydrogen because we do think that this is an enabler to decarbonisation and we all know that that we have to move in that direction to make sure that we have an affordable reliable and secure decarbonisation if you have any questions for us you have our emails please don't hesitate to contact us and with that 50 minutes we thank you very much and we hope to stay connected with you thank you everybody thanks a lot thank you very much

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